Cindy wrote:
As I said before, I'm convinced that Bagman will turn out to be an evil DE after all. Caroline is on board, ::waves to Caroline:: but maybe a few others can be persuaded to see Bagman as the Longstanding Devoted Servant of the Dark Lord that he really is.
::Elkins removes the pipe from her mouth and squints speculatively over the top of her spectacles at Cindy::
So...Cindy. Tell me now, in all honesty.
Do you like Ludo Bagman?
::puts pipe away::
Wow. You know, you really do make a good case for this? I think that I'm starting to believe it.
Dammit.
Because you see, I really don't want Bagman to be guilty. I really, really don't. Not because I have any particular liking for the man (I have no feelings at all about him one way or the other; he's an utter flat-liner for me), but because I would like to believe that somewhere, somewhere out there, there is at least one person who honestly was bewitched or threatened or coerced or just plain duped into serving Voldemort's cause. One. Just one. One would be nice.
I mean, we've got Malfoy and Avery, right? Both of them acquitted because they claimed to have been acting under the Imperius Curse.
Guilty, guilty, guilty.
And then we've got all their DE buddies, similarly acquitted.
Guilty.
And then we've got Pettigrew, who claimed to have been terrorized and browbeaten and threatened until he agreed to pass on information to Voldemort...but who actually turns out to have been deeply enough involved to be sporting the Dark Mark.
Oh, SO guilty!
And then there's young Master Crouch, who even Sirius thought might have been caught in the wrong place in the wrong time, and who even Dumbledore thought might have really been innocent, and who screamed his innocence at the top of his lungs all the way through his trial...
Oh, no. He's guilty. And mad, to boot.
You see where I'm going here, I trust. It's a little disturbing, isn't it? Was there really no one serving this guy unwittingly, or even unwillingly? Didn't anyone really get duped? For heaven's sake, where are all of the patsies and the weaklings?
Yeah, yeah. I know. The patsies and the weaklings are all hanging out in the Green Room, getting sympathy hugs and cookies from the Bleeding Hearts.
—Elkins, patting one of Mulciber's Imperius victims on the back while murmuring soothingly: "Now, now...there, there...I know, I know...it wasn't your fault..."
noylj wrote:
There were no DE's under the Imperius curse. Need to see if Bagman has the mark now the Moldevort is back. Remember what Winky said...He's a very bad wizard.
By the time of the drawing of names, Bagman was fully aware of the plan and was trying to ensure that Harry would win. We did not see a single innocent in the pensieve.
Next, was the Imperius curse that Crouch!Moody used the same as the one Moldevort and his DE's used? There has to be a difference between the short-term, direct control curse of the class room and the general, attitude-changing, permanent variety that was used to control so many people. That little curse used in the class room could not control the whole class of students, even as they leave and go about their business. No, Moldevort's version has to make the person accept and internalize the DE's view of the world and willing go about doing Moldy's work.
Elkins wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. However, not all those who aided Voldemort were necessarily Death Eaters.
As for Bagman, I tend to go for the straightforward reading here, as out-of-character as that may seem for me. :-D I believe that Bagman was a useful idiot, probably not quite as innocent or as oblivious as he pretended to be at his trial, but hardly a Death Eater either.
I don't see why it wouldn't be.
I see no evidence of permanence. Crouch Elder succeeds in fighting Voldemort's Imperius curse, while Crouch Younger kicks Crouch Elder's. Hagrid claims that when Voldemort was discorporated, people shook off the Imperius as if they were coming out of trances (of course, a number of them may have been faking it!).
Karkaroff claimed that Mulciber was an "Imperius specialist." I suspect that it takes considerable skill and practice to be able to hold many people under the curse at once, but I see no reason not to believe that it is the same spell as the one Crouch!Moody demonstrated in his classroom.
Well, Crouch Jr. wasn't trying to maintain control of any of the students once the class was over, was he?
I don't think that I agree. Both Crouch Elder in GoF and poor old Bode in OotP become noticably ill-looking while under the Imperius curse. This suggests to my mind that neither man truly accepted or internalized the DEs' agenda, even while under the curse. Crouch is able to overcome mental domination and shows no sign of having been permanently "converted" to Voldemort's cause once he does so. Nor does Crouch Junior show any signs of having been converted to his father's cause, even after a decade under the damned thing.